Falcon Crusaders
I usually shy away from politics. However I am concerned about the recent report that the 'Americans United for the Separation of Church and State' have compiled about 'religious intolerance' at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs.
(read it at http://www.au.org/site/PageServer)
The report says that the Air Force Academy has a number of 'highly evangelical' groups that want to 'convert' people.
Oh no! Watch out! We wouldn't want cadets (or college students on other campuses) to stop banging strangers or abusing drugs and alcohol. Don't them them be proselytized by 'highly evangelical' crazies. And by God, don't let them think for themselves, they might turn away from the horse mierda that is taught in many of our universities.
I wonder what the real 'religious intolerance' the AUSC is really pushing.
(read it at http://www.au.org/site/PageServer)
The report says that the Air Force Academy has a number of 'highly evangelical' groups that want to 'convert' people.
Oh no! Watch out! We wouldn't want cadets (or college students on other campuses) to stop banging strangers or abusing drugs and alcohol. Don't them them be proselytized by 'highly evangelical' crazies. And by God, don't let them think for themselves, they might turn away from the horse mierda that is taught in many of our universities.
I wonder what the real 'religious intolerance' the AUSC is really pushing.
posted by fatherneo at 3:13 PM
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33 Comments:
There is a report about this on Nightline tonight. I also saw the report on ABC Nightly News. Its hard to make a judgement about this going on media information.
Think about it this way:
Suppose your son or daughter was at college (or high school, elementary...) and they had a very religious teacher. Let's suppose, though, that this teacher's religion was one with which you disagree. I don't know what that might be for you - a Liberation Theologist maybe? a Mormon?
Would you want that teacher pushing their beliefs on your children? Not just casually mentioning it a time or two, but expecting papers that align properly with the teacher's beliefs. Or even "just" really pushing it all the time, saying "If you don't believe my way, you're hellbound and a sorry excuse for a person." Do you want your child to continue in that class? Do you want that teacher to continue in that school?
I'm very leary of telling people what they can and can't say. But I'm equally leary of extremely zealous people of any stripe in positions of authority freely expounding on religious doctrine in a secular setting.
I haven't followed this story closely so don't have a strong opinion on it. But I do have a strong opinion about teachers pushing their religion on my kids.
And I say this as a dedicated Christian. Just one who doesn't want someone else to use a classroom setting to indoctrinate.
I believe I read this morning that the reason this got press and congressional angst is that it preceded by 24 hours an official report that the Denver ComPost derided as a "white wash" of the what conventional wisdom deemed the Air Force Academy's sin of religiosity. The official report found instead that the Christians were indeed there, but that their expression of faith did not reach the level of abuse of free speech. Ta-daaa.
AUSCS is a sourse of heat, not light. It and People for the American Way are anti-Christian. The Reverend Barry Lynn, who leads AUSCS and who is their media spokesman, appearing nightly on MSNBC, CNN, and the alphabet networks has an interesting past. He was employed as Chief Counsel of the ACLU before he moved into AUSCS. This fact is never disclosed when he guests on TV talk shows.
Consider the sources here. They only have credibility among the incredibly naive, which sounds reassuring, but is not. I'm afraid we live in a time which values feelings over facts, especially with respect to the primacy of man over God.
DT,
I understand and agree with you to a point about your previous post. But on the flipside, if an Islamist group would begin to do similar things, no one would dare to object. There is a complete and total double standard with the people who oppose what is happening at the Air Force Academy, and also in similar situations around the nation. It's really funny because everyone wants to tolerate faith and religion, except they cannot tolerate Christians because we're too "exclusive". What do you say Fr. Neo?
Dan et al,
Elementary and high school is one thing, college and institutions of higher learning another.
Dan, you speak as "one who doesn't want someone else to use a classroom setting to indoctrinate," but that is exactly what secularists have been doing for the last 200 years. Some of that is OK in a setting where you have the free exchange of ideas. My problem is that theses watchdog groups pretend they have no bias. Every teacher has an agenda and none are 'objective.' It is only the 'evangelical Christians' that get pinged for having an agenda. In a so called 'liberal' (in the best sense of the word) university setting, my kids ought to be taught from differing points of view (Muslim, Mormon, secular, etc.) let's just be honest and up front about where teachers and administrators are coming from.
I agree there is some difference between primary schools and colleges.
At the college level, though, if I were in a Algebra class and the teacher kept espousing religious doctrine, I'd likely drop the class in favor of another teacher and let the college know why I'd done so.
I was very rarely indoctrinated in any of my schools since 1st grade (where the teacher read the Bible and prayed prayers). I was exposed to various ideas (left, right, middle and philosophy-free), but I think there is a difference between exposure, which I support, and attempts at indoctrination, which I don't.
I don't know what has happened at these latest points in the news, but think it can be a fine line to tread.
I would agree with Moody Padawan Niece in that there is a double standard when it comes to Christianity in our society. Also I would agree with Fr. Neo in that secularist have most certainly been using the classroom to indoctrinate for the last 200 years. I had an experience years ago with a Prof who was very left wing. He would use the classroom as a platform for speakers who espoused his political beliefs. Anyone who disagreed was branded as gullible and naive and I suspect that their papers were graded accordingly. I struggle to make a judgement in this instance because I just never know what to believe about media coverage. Some of the things that were said were very suspect to me. One student said he was called an f-ing Jew. I really can't picture a hard core evangelical Christian doing that...maybe I'm wrong...Also, while I believe in bold evangelization... I don't believe in obnoxious antagonistic evangelization.
So perhaps we can agree that obnoxious, proselytizing, unjust types of "sharing" shouldn't happen - whether from the left or right. And that sharing politely and justly from all sides is a fine and wonderful thing.
Spot on you are Trabue!
Yes, I think we can agree on this.
Let the resonating begin!
Here's a fun quiz: http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870
What think ye, Father Neo?
Socratic Coyote & Fr. Neo,
In response to the quiz you linked to, here are my results (I think a lot of the percentages have to do with what priority you gave some statements, eg. if you answered somewhere in the middle rather than 100% agreeing/disagreeing with a statement):
Result of Quiz :: What's your theological worldview?
You scored as Reformed Evangelical.
You are a Reformed Evangelical. You take the Bible very seriously because it is God's Word. You most likely hold to TULIP and are sceptical about the possibilities of universal atonement or resistible grace. The most important thing the Church can do is make sure people hear how they can go to heaven when they die.
Reformed Evangelical 75%
Neo orthodox 71%
Fundamentalist 64%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 64%
Emergent/Postmodern 43%
Roman Catholic 29%
Classical Liberal 29%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 14%
Modern Liberal 0%
Cool quiz. A bit skewed, but fun.
It didn't measure my theology very well, because the questions offered often didn't apply to my faith. I'd say I'm definitely not postmodern, but they had no/few questions that would reflect my anabaptist views (and I'm guessing that anabaptist is not one of their categories.)
Nonetheless, the results:
You are Emergent/Postmodern in your theology. You feel alienated from older forms of church, you don't think they connect to modern culture very well. [TRUE] No one knows the whole truth about God...[TRUE, but are there those who claim to and to what group do they belong? Reformed Egomaniacs?...]
Emergent/Postmodern 71%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 61%
Neo orthodox 54%
Classical Liberal 50%
Modern Liberal 46%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 39%
Reformed Evangelical 25%
Fundamentalist 21%
Roman Catholic 21%
You scored as Roman Catholic.
Here's the results of my quiz:
luce the papal hater will cringe at this:
"You are Roman Catholic. Church tradition and ecclesial authority are hugely important, and the most important part of worship for you is mass. As the Mother of God, Mary is important in your theology, and as the communion of saints includes the living and the dead, you can also ask the saints to intercede for you.
Roman Catholic
93%
Neo orthodox
79%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan
71%
Charismatic/Pentecostal
54%
Fundamentalist
54%
Classical Liberal
50%
Emergent/Postmodern
46%
Reformed Evangelical
29%
Modern Liberal
11%"
Quite fascinating I must say!
luce,
(You've lost the chance to be 'neo' in any way on this blog).
I think you are on a very dangerous path. I must say that there is venom in you that reeks of the dark side.
You scored as Roman Catholic.
You are Roman Catholic. Church tradition and ecclesial authority are hugely important, and the most important part of worship for you is mass. As the Mother of God, Mary is important in your theology, and as the communion of saints includes the living and the dead, you can also ask the saints to intercede for you.
Roman Catholic
82%
Neo orthodox
79%
Emergent/Postmodern
68%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan
61%
Classical Liberal
43%
Modern Liberal
36%
Reformed Evangelical
18%
Fundamentalist
11%
Charismatic/Pentecostal
11%
Very fun quiz! Very limited though, even flawed. I mean 11% Charismatic/Pentecostal?! It would be 0% for me. It also seems to leave out the Via Media tradition of Anglicanism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Celtic, Luthern (can't be lumped in Reformed), an Anabaptist @ DT said.
I protest! There is no way in hell!!! The only good use for a photo of Jerry Falwell is as a dartboard!
You are a fundamentalist. You take the Bible as the foundation of your faith and read it very literally, and it shapes your worldview. Non-fundamentalist Christians have watered-down the Gospel in your view, and academic study of the Bible stops us from 'taking God at his word.' Science is opposed to faith, as it contradicts basic biblical truths.
Fundamentalist
86%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan
79%
Emergent/Postmodern
68%
Reformed Evangelical
64%
Roman Catholic
61%
Charismatic/Pentecostal
57%
Neo orthodox
50%
Classical Liberal
39%
Modern Liberal
32%
Very funny angevoix! As FatherNeo would say ... JUKED!
I knew the Moody girl was a protty Calvinist, but why did I come up more Catholic than the Catholics (angevoix and Constantine)!?
Perhaps try this one on for size. I thought the questions a bit goofy/new-agey, but this test concluded I was a Liberal Quaker, which comes closer than po/mo.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html
And, angevoix, your dartboard is in the mail.
DT,
I tried your quiz: http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html
I've taken it several times, the last time I took it was 2+ years ago. This was interesting:
1. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (99%)
2. Orthodox Quaker (100%)
3. Seventh Day Adventist (94%)
4. Eastern Orthodox (93%)
5. Roman Catholic (93%)
All the other percentages for other religions were under 60%.
Whew! Yes I like your quiz much better Dan...
1.Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (100%)
2.Seventh Day Adventist (97%)
3.Orthodox Quaker (87%)
4.Eastern Orthodox (86%)
5.Roman Catholic (86%)
6.Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (72%)
By the way Fr. Neo, on the other quiz you also scored higher than me as a Charismatic/Pentecostal.
Seventh Day Adventist, angevoix?
Don't ask me. All I know about those folks is that they don't drink caffeine and go to church on Saturdays...
Padre,
Your RC score must have something to do with your Jesuit retreat house experience that you recalled in an earlier post. You gotta love those who say they experience God in an unexpected and tangible way as a consequence of their initial encounter with Rome and then look elsewhere for the same thing. :) Of course, it's a little different, for some anyway, who like me have been there for most of our lives. We see the other side, or underbelly if you will, too. You can sic Seraph on me if you want.
You scored as Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan.
You are an evangelical in the Wesleyan tradition. You believe that God's grace enables you to choose to believe in him, even though you yourself are totally depraved. The gift of the Holy Spirit gives you assurance of your salvation, and he also enables you to live the life of obedience to which God has called us. You are influenced heavly by John Wesley and the Methodists.
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan
79%
Roman Catholic
75%
Neo orthodox
75%
Classical Liberal
61%
Reformed Evangelical
61%
Charismatic/Pentecostal
43%
Emergent/Postmodern
39%
Fundamentalist
21%
Modern Liberal
18%
My wife will love this followed immediately by she won't believe it.
Here's my results from the Beliefnet quiz:
1. Eastern Orthodox (100%)
2. Roman Catholic (100%)
3. Orthodox Quaker (91%)
4. Seventh Day Adventist (89%)
5. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (88%)
6. Orthodox Judaism (59%)
Interesting, not really surprising.
My Beliefnet stats:
1. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant - 100%
2. Eastern Orthodox – 99%
3. Roman Catholic – 99%
4. Seventh Day Adventist – 94%
5. Orthodox Quaker – 80%
I'm 66% Hindu, too.
I found this quiz on Beliefnet. It asks: "What kind of Christian are you?", rather than what beliefs you hold. I think it's a weird quiz. http://www.beliefnet.com/section/quiz/index.asp?sectionID=10002&surveyID=83
Here are my results, looks like I'm off the scale!:
What kind of Christian are you?
You scored 413, on a scale of 0 to 400. Here's how to interpret your score:
0 - 59
You are a Jesse Ventura Christian (a.k.a. a "Secularist" or non-Christian).
60 - 149
You are a Bishop Spong Christian (a.k.a. "Biblical Revisionist").
150 - 249
You are a Hillary Rodham Clinton Christian (a.k.a. "Left-Leaning Traditionalist").
250 - 329
You are a George Bush Sr. Christian (a.k.a. "Right-Leaning Traditionalist").
330 - 400
You are a Jerry Falwell Christian (a.k.a "Historicist").
HA! This is rich. I scored 259, falling in the "George Bush Sr. Christian (a.k.a. "Right-Leaning Traditionalist")" category.
And I quote angevoix: "No way in hell!"
That's it! I've had it! I'm not taking anymore quizzes that don't include James Dean and Cornel West!
330 - 400
You are a Jerry Falwell Christian (a.k.a "Historicist"). UUUUUUUUUUGH!
angevoix,
Well, at least you fall into a category!!! I'm off the scale, what does that mean? Maybe I'm not a Christian . . . LOL!!!
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