Everyplace or Noplace Sacred?
I've had a number of talks with 'skeptics' of the Faith as of late. I always invite them to check Fr. Neo's White Rabbit, so they are probably reading right now. A common objection seems to be: 'I can be spiritual anywhere, and I can practice my belief anywhere, why do I need to go to church?'
Beyond the POMO 'spritual but not religious' horse caca is a serious question. What is it about the Church that compels people to want to be a part of it? Jesus, of course is the answer, and he's the One we are directing folks to, but why the Church? I invite your comments.
Beyond the POMO 'spritual but not religious' horse caca is a serious question. What is it about the Church that compels people to want to be a part of it? Jesus, of course is the answer, and he's the One we are directing folks to, but why the Church? I invite your comments.
posted by fatherneo at 7:46 PM
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Without the church, our sample of humanity is too small for us to fully understand the human problem and our need for salvation. The imperfection of man is invisible from afar. Up close, it is too obvious. The church brings us up against our humanity and our sinfulness by immersing us in sin and death, which stand out starkly against the holiness of God in worship. We can more clearly see the devastation of sin and death among us when we do the work of the church, which should take us beyond writing a check. If God is merciful to us, we may glimpse that even our leaders are flawed. Once again, God is showing us the truth of our sinfulness and our need for Christ to overcome it.
Secularists may filter the context against which they examine life, avoiding the bad parts, relegating them to "those people" of a lesser class or race. Some churches even attempt the same filtering, appealing to the "chosen" in their select community, whose manner, wealth, overt holy demeanor and community status are the source of their hope for salvation. But, fortunately, if the sample is large enough, the enmities and jealousies, the lusts and grudges, the resentments and feuds come out, showing us the paucity of resources that might bring holiness from among the people . Goodness and holiness only come from God. We have no bootstrapping ability to bring righteousness to ourselves. Our holiness is hollow. Our goodness is a pose. We recognize that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of the Lord. In despair, secularists may attempt to shape God into their image. But their creation will not suit. It will be weak. In time they will abandon it to a Sunday New York Times kind of life. To their friends they may brag that their parents went to church. But without Him, they will die alone, bitter like Freud, that God was not real.
All men need Christ. There has never been any alternative. God is our refuge and our strength. If only because nothing else works.
The more things change...the more they stay the same, obviously. The "why church" question is nearly as old as church itself, otherwise why would the author of Hebrews have to address the issue? "let us not give up meeting together as some are in the habit of doing..." 10:25 First of all we are commanded to attend church just as we are commanded to be baptized...it doesn't always seem to make sense but we are told to do it. But you still feel you don't need church. Its a waste of time for you. You are so deeply spiritual that you never get anything out of the pastor's sermons. It doesn't minister to your needs. You can worship God in nature, the church is full of hypocrites...etc, etc, etc.Okay...so you don't need us, we got you...but has it ever occurred to you that we might need you! Maybe you're called to church not for what you can get from the table, but for what you can bring to it... Maybe our motivation for coming to church isn't supposed to be about self at all. Maybe it isn't about us coming and getting the encouragement we feel we need, but about us encouraging the one in the pew next to us. Maybe we have become spiritually arthritic after years of attendance and we need you to be a breath of fresh air...Just a thought. The key to the why is in the second part of verse 25 ..."but let us encourage one another."
"What is it about the Church that compels people to want to be a part of it?"
Hmmm...Maybe the ridicule, the threats, the imprisonments, the beatings, or the crucifixions?
Of course, that's talking about the historic church, not today's church.
The problem with today's church, according to Soren Kierkegaard is that it "has been made so completely devoid of character that there is really nothing to persecute. The chief trouble with Christians, therefore, is that no one wants to kill them anymore."
Dan,
You said about the 'historic church' that the problem was:
"the ridicule, the threats, the imprisonments, the beatings, or the crucifixions?"
Sounds like Hollywood and the academic elite have used 'Jedi mind tricks' on you. Which 'historic church' are you talking about?
Love the Kierkegaard quote!
Perhaps I should have said the "Early Church." I'm talking about Jesus, the disciples and the first few hundred years of Christianity mostly. Although there have been returns of persecutions throughout church history.
Have I spoken in error?
Let me clarify:
I'm looking at your last post, fneo, and I'm not saying that was a problem with the early church. It was in response to your question: What compels people to want to be part of the church?
I was stating that, in fact, there is a good deal that is unappealing about the church, on a certain level.
And then I was going on to agree with Kierkegaard.
Dan,
My bad! I see now what you were saying. I thought you meant that the church did this to others (though that is true in some parts of history, sadly). You are spot on!
Not to be argumentative, but there are still Christians who face severe persecution throughout the world. It is estimated that over 45 million people lost their lives for the sake of the gospel in the last century. This accounts for 65% of all Christian martyrs throughout the history of the church. In China alone 129 people were killed for being Christians last year.
angevoix classes up this site.
Ange,
You are also spot on. 'The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church' so said Tertullian. I am resonating over the miles.
Morpheus,
Watch it, or Seraph may strike. We are full of class here!
Well...I am just so flattered....I don't know what to say...Merci Morpheus and Fr.Neo.
I like your style Sheila. Advise a member of the Anglican clergy (we send peole to hell, rather than save them from it), how to help people KNOW Jesus, and not just about him.
neoluce,
Just what the hell are you talking about? Go back to your word studies, throw away your 'church as Babylon' books, and give it another shot. Your conspiracy theory is showing.
keats, Luce, Sheila,
I sense hurt and pain from the church and for that I am truly sorry.
However, you must understand that in the centuries of the church the majority of clergy fall can be characterized as follows:
broke
selfless
compassionate
martyred
loving, gentle (see Galatians 5)
The majority of clergy I know are: there in the middle of the night when called; don't make much money; hold the hand of dying people that have no family; work tireless hours; lead and love worship; worry about administrative details; hear about death, divorce, pain, illness; and lastly, bury people they love.
I agree with so much of what you say, but I sad that you view your spiritual leaders so poorly. Pray for your pastor. And me, a sinner.
luce,
What you say has no warrant in Scripture, 'You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain.' This is part of Paul's argument that pastors can earn a living by practicing their calling. Beyond that, you are assuming that all clergy are money and power hungry. You are sadly mistaken.
Much anger in you luce. I hope it doesn't get the best of you.
neoluce,
You're trying to make scripture answer questions it doesn't ask.
Try the decaf, neoluce.
keats & sheila,
You need to evaluate where your theology is coming from. I can see that sheila was hurt by a controlling church that was over-authoritative.
keats on the other hand, it sounds like you are taking American individualism and applying it to church life. Does Scripture not have 'authority' over you, and does it not 'tell you what to do?' Indeed clergy are 'just people,' but many over the centuries are examples that we should all follow (the apostles, Athanasius, Patrick just to name a few). One can have authority and not be authoritarian can they not? I think that's how our Lord leads, is it not?
sheila jo,
Let's look at this practically. Does one 'aspire' to minsitry or is one called? How does one carry out his call in your scheme? If there is no pastoral leadership of any kind, that militates against all of Paul's pastoral letters. I am not comfortable throwing out Paul's letters because some people abuse their authority. Because someone is abused by their parents, should we eliminate parents in general? Spiritual authority and leadership is abused, but that does not mean we eliminate spiritual authority and leadership.
I've not had much to comment upon this thread as I have mixed feelings. But I will come to the defense of the "paid" clergy because ours is so wonderful. If you don't mind, a little background:
We were part of a Southern Baptist mission, in a building owned by the local Southern Baptists and not ourselves. Several years ago, we felt God leading us to call an associate minister who happened to be a woman as our pastor.
She wasn't necessarily seeking the position. In fact, because the Southern Baptists here are opposed to women ministers, it could only lead to trouble. But she was/is blessed with a pastoral ministry. It's her gift.
And so we called her. The Southern Baptists promptly kicked us out of our little building and we set up shop in another little building.
While my anabaptist roots endorses the notion of having no paid ministers, if ever someone was called to such a ministry, it is our pastor. And if her, then I'm sure others might be as well.
My thoughts, for all they're worth.
Geeze...where to start. First of all there is a scriptural mandate for leadership within the church, among other places I Timothy 3 gives us an outline for appointing overseers and deacons...whatever you want to call the position, pastor, priest, reverend...its clear that there is a Biblical foundation for the office of clergy.
I beleive that the pastor's main role for his church is to provide and communicate cleary the vision God has entrusted to him for the church God has entrusted him with. Is it his job to visit all the sick people, feed all the hungry, visit everyone in prison?..Absolutely not. We are not absolved from our responsibility to enflesh the Gospel on the grounds that its the pastor's job. The pastoral role isn't just heading a church. Anyone from a parent to a sunday school teacher who helps to nuture the spiritual growth of another is operating in a pastoral role. The OFFICE of pastor is unique, but not elite. Christ made it clear that anyone who seeks to be a leader must assume the role of a servant.
Are there bad clergy out there? Of course. Are there bad police officers, doctors, lawyers, judges, teachers, car salesmen. Yes, but I'm not going to disobey the law, never see another doctor, forego my education, and stop driving because of them! Paul himself questioned the motivation of some of his fellow clergy, but said regardless of what their motivation was, he rejoiced that Christ was preached! (Philippians 1:18)
As far as authority...it all has to be based in the Word and our relationship to the Word Incarnate. John 1:1. You won't have any authority without both components.In Titus 2:15 Paul tells Titus to encourage and rebuke with all authority.
Now having said that... I know first hand the experience of Spiritual abuse and the devastating effects of being under the leadership of a pastor who overstepped his authority. But I knew something was off and I began to pray for a more "intellegent" example of spiritual leadership. Over the course of a year I was led to the church I have been attending for the last six years. Is it perfect. NO! I know my pastor very well. I work at the school and see him nearly every day. I see sides of him that most others don't see and know things that most others don't know...his failings and all his quirks. Is he perfect. No. But he is sincere, and that is all that matters to me.He works harder than any human being I have ever met and gets paid next to nothing. He is asked to do speaking engagements all over the world for which he earns about $125,000 all of which he donates back to our church. He has had his life threatened by drug dealers, his job threatened by the Cardinal, and his sanity threatened by his congregation... but he just keeps plugging away. He has earned international recognition from leaders such as Archbishop Desmond Tutu and Coretta Scott King, and yet he us one of the most humble and accessible people I have ever met. but regardless of all of this he always points the eyes of his congregation away from himself and towards Jesus...plain and simple. And as far as claiming exclusive truth, we hear guest speakers from a variety of denominations regularly... We are taught that the church is composed of the body of Christ and is not confined to the walls of a buliding. We are taught that just because someone disagrees with your doctrine doesn't mean they don't have anything to teach you. We are taught to be open and to think critically.
My last and final thing...do people get hurt in church? I've had things happen to me that would make some people's hair turn white overnight... but I learned its a matter of focus. I know what I am about and I try to hang with people who are about the same thing. Jesus told us from the get go that the goats would be with the sheep, the wheat with the tares... You gravitate to what you are focused on. My focus is on eternity and I am running to win. Anger, unforgiveness, negativity, bitterness...its all so draining... I just don't have the time or the energy.
Morpheus was right. Angevoix is the class of this blog. Thanks again for being spot on. I am, yes, resonating with what you said.
Knowing two class acts such as you and my pastor, I couldn't not say anything in defense of the clergy, Fr. Neo!
I would consider the office of Overseer as being that of Pastor
"they were only for a very brief season to fill a very pricise purpose." The gifts and callings of God are without repentance.
pastors(plural) - I addressed this.
If you really believe that all pastors are evil and on the take, I think you need to examine the wind that is carrying you...To be unwilling and unable to find anyone who you feel would be suitable to nurture your spiritual growth smacks of arrogance...
There are pastors who are in it for the take, but there are many more who do it from sincere motivations for very little in return. Your inability to acknowledge or see that is your loss.
Angevoix,
Even Seraph is pleased with you!
dim-luce,
Your exegesis is muddled. You said, "I would make one more statement about the concept of PASTOR, in that it is not nor ever was an office or an ordained position..."
Too bad no one in the history of Christianity agrees with you! The orders of ministry are clear: Bishop, presbyter and deacon. (btw, the Greek word for 'overseer' in the NIV is 'episkopas' which means 'bishop.')
This is clear in I,II Timothy and Titus as well as in the letters of Ignatius of Antioch (early 2nd century). Why listen to Ignatuis? He was a disciple of John the Evangelist and is much more reliable than Dave Hunt or Jack Chick.
We've enjoyed you, luce. Despite your anger.
I hate to drag this out. We've all stated our positions, and all that.
Just a minor correction, Fr. Neo. When you say "no one in the history of Christianity" doesn't believe in paid positions such as bishop, etc, that is not exactly true.
Some in the anabaptist tradition don't. I believe most quakers don't and there may be others.
Certainly most traditions do believe as you suggest, but not all. Just making sure something is not stated in error.
Your right, Dan. And the Protestant traditions (oxymoron?) would differ on what the role of a biblical bishop, presbyter and deacon is. Still, it took 1500 years to move away from the traditional bishop/priest/deacon order of ministry. The anabaptists, Quakers, etc. have rightly shown the importance of the laity and all Christians' priviledge of having a living relationship with the living Lord, not mediated by anyone. Obviously I have hesitations about the degree to which they have moved, but I do see the strengths in those traditions and appreciate your anabaptist and sheila jo's Quaker(?) contribution to our little webzine.
I’m no myrmidon Neoluce. Fr. Neo can vouch for me on this. If anything, I walk in the footsteps of Odysseus.
What joy, what life is there in what you espouse? Forget about proof-texting. Doesn’t your heart need a rest? You labor over irrelevant minutia. The style of your rhetoric reminds me of the “Left Behinders.” It reveals an appetite for wrath and judgment to set the rest of us right. If you’re understanding of God and all the rest is right then let Him damn me. I don’t give a damn.
There is no “golden-thread” or remnant of true believers. There never has been (don’t go quoting me about Noah) and there never will be. It just ain’t so. Whoever thinks this, and I don’t care who they are, needs to try and see the world through the eyes of Jesus. Yep, it’s often a big hodgepodge of a mess and sometimes a royal pain in the ass, even dangerous and evil, which in turn requires a prophetic voice getting a tad pissed off, but there is a time and season for everything Neoluce, and you gotta have balance. I’d say it’s time you have a vodka & tonic and let your soul take a Sabbath.
"What joy, what life is there in what you espouse? Forget about proof-texting. Doesn’t your heart need a rest?"
Well said Constantine. Well said.
Ditto for the Vodka & tonic.
Well said Constantine. Even though you are a royal pain in the ass, too.
LOL! Neoluce should try the same--it's good medicine for the heart.
Don't push me though, Seraph. :)
When I see a drug house down the street, I sound the alarm. I am vigilant. I keep watch, and I call the police. But I don't go there to live. And I don't brand everyone else who lives on the street a junkie. I don't let my concern over the drug house rule my life and consume my thoughts, emotions, and philosophy of life. I don't let the drug house keep me from functioning and doing what I need to do on my block. I am very concerned about the state of the church. My Pastor speaks about it all of the time. As you know,I wrote a post called "Strange Dreams" which speaks to the issue. But I am at rest as I am commanded to be in Hebrews 3:18 - 4:11. That is the rest Constantine is talking about. It isn't about sitting back and doing nothing, its about having peace and joy, patience love and kindness in the midst of the hellish circumstances of life. I can assure you, I am very active in my faith. Luce's proof text are a complete distortion of the scripture, out of context and inaccurate. I wouldn't even begin to try to go verse by verse with him because his application is so helter skelter. How do you discuss scripture with someone who pulls verses out of nowhere and hacks them to fit their agenda? Constantine's attitude is not blithe and rest he is speaking of has nothing to do with the position of his body, but is insted an attitude of the heart that trust in God.
I think you have misjudged Constatine.I believe it is very judgemental to speak as though there are only a few in each church who are sincere. I believe most are sincere and the tares and goats are few.
It is okay to be angry...but our anger should not consume us and distort how we see the world and those around us. It shouldn't linger and rob us of the rest God has promised us.
So, Sheila Jo decided to take ole Constantine to the woodshed and take a stick to him. That’s fair. No problem by me. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, right? Hence, using that same goose/gander logic, I served up for consumption a brief “exhortation” (how’s that for a B-I-B-L-E word) to Neoluce. I think it’s a fair assumption that most who take a peek at this Blog, and certainly those who decide to comment, know Fr. Neo is the real deal as to his clergy status (he says so explicitly in his profile). With that in mind, it’s my contention that it doesn’t stretch credulity to say that Neoluce’s comments were perceived by some…hmm…how to say this in a way that’s not “R” rated…let’s say as an ad hominem attack. His first post was caustic in the extreme given Fr. Neo’s role as a priest. It’s one thing to present for consideration and debate here an unpopular idea (I’ve done it more than a few times regarding Universalism). It’s also reasonable to expect a counter-argument to your idea if it’s not normative for the folks you are engaging in debate. But, it’s an entirely different thing to launch acerbic attacks and not expect some resistance. So, when you called my comments blithe, my response back to you is that you’re absolutely right and I made them so by design. Neoluce has passion and there’s certainly nothing wrong with that. In my estimation, it’s fine, even shrewd, to be appropriately polemical when making a point about something that you think matters. Even if one is compelled to take some liberty in a forum such as this (I do it often) and take some shots, I’d say that’s o.k. too (Fr. Neo says as much in the header of this Blog where he speaks of “sparring”). But ole Neoluce needs to take a step back because he’s not sparring but assaulting. While his proposition, or at least its underlying premise (church/holy orders = bad/abuse/wrong vs. the priesthood of all believers), is worthy of consideration, Neoluce would do well to remember the axiom that it’s easier to catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
Now, as to my knowledge of scripture…well…there was a time when…well…let’s just say that I’ve learned from personal experience that knowing scripture and applying it isn’t necessarily the same thing. By way of an example that is apropos to our discussion, in times past I would have said that the following verse, “As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated” (Romans 9:13 KJV), was tantamount to Divine Election/Predestination (I speak here of a Reformed/Calvinist grid of interpretation). You ain’t gonna get more “remnant” than that, but I’d say now in hindsight that my earlier view was decidedly a misinterpretation and skewed. I didn’t always think so, but things change I suppose. So my point is this. Just because someone throws around bible verses (proof-texting) under the pretext they are acting in accordance to the example of the Bereans doesn’t make it authentic. Of course, the same can be said of the use of theology, philosophy, etc. But because Holy Writ carries such weight in our faith, caution as to its use must be the first order of business. This is where jholder would say we need the “consensus of the Fathers” to guide us, or where Rome would assert that the teaching Magisterium is essential and required. I wouldn’t go quite that far, but there is an element of wisdom to be found in that line of thinking. Sheila Jo, I agree that Jesus had harsh words for the religious system of His day, and I wouldn’t be surprised if He had some choice words for us too. Yes, there are those who are “called out from among the heathen,” in order that they might be “salt and light,” but that doesn’t grant them the status of “remnant believers” with the implied instructions to batten down the proverbial hatches because the rest “out there” are about to be zapped. This seems to me to be the tone of Neoluce. To extrapolate as Neoluce does that clergy are by definition inside the camp of the Enemy is absurd, and his bluff needed to be called. And indeed it was and in a polite and effective manner by both Fr. Neo and Angevoix. When I made my blithe comment I was just playing by the same rules preferred by Neoluce, so it came across flippant, which of course it was meant to be.
Some final thoughts Sheila Jo. I obviously don’t know the specific circumstances of your past church experience, but it seems safe to say given your comments here and on your Blog that it wasn’t good. I empathize wholeheartedly. And I can tell you that I make no bones about the harm that can be done in the name of religion. I’m also not as forgiving as Angevoix, who said that she’d seen things that would make our hair turn white. I’m a 37 year old daddy to two glorious God given gifts, namely my two daughters. I can say with candor that if they were exposed to things within the church establishment that would make their hair turn white before their day, they could rest assured they would have a fiery defender in me. I would offer little forbearance to the offender and would not be a worthy model of our “turn the other cheek” ethic (though of course that would be the correct attitude, as demonstrated by Angevoix). I also don’t give the Church a “get out of jail free” card and let them pass go and collect $200 without voicing in a variety of ways my demand for accountability. (See my comments in this Blog under “Inclusion via Exclusion” regarding my own church.)
You are too generous, Constantine. I try to be very Spirit led now in my response to conflict. Trust me...there are times when I have said my peace and issued my own walking papers.My anger was always directed at the one who had invoked it, not everyone! But there are also times when under the unction of the Holy Spirit I have sat back and allowed God to prepair a table for me in the presence of my enemies. I've found He does it quite well. Notice when I began to feel ill at ease at my former church the first thing i did was PRAY! Then I moved... unfortunately many times we move and then pray! Which is unfortunate because what I have discovered over the years when I have had conflict is that rather than changing the circumstances or the people around me, God's real goal is to change ME! But that will never happen if I run or play the blame game everytime I'm not happy about something.
Sheila Jo,
I look forward to reading your poem.
Padre,
When I mentioned that the proposition regarding the "priesthood of all believers" vs. the clergy was one worthy of consideration it wasn't, as you know, because I agree that they are in opposition to one another, but that it is a topic worth discussing and clarifying.
Angevoix,
I doubt my generosity is overstated. Saying your peace wouldn't in my book negate a person's pose. You mentioned, "I am very concerned about the state of the church. My Pastor speaks about it all of the time." Would you be willing to elaborate? What would make you feel "ill at ease" in church?
What made me feel ill at ease was a combination of several things. First and foremost I felt my pastor was very controlling. He was also prone to strident perfectionism, and fits of rage. His preaching was harsh and condemming. I felt as if God's acceptance was something I had to work for. He at one point stood and told the congregation that if they didn't participate in a specific church function they would be cursed. Is that controlling enough for you? Also he stressed prosperity theology. It was an ongoing theme of nearly every sermon. And yet while he was living an excessively lavish lifestyle I was being paid $13,000.a year to teach at his school...hmmmm.
My main concern about the current state of the church is similar to Sheilajo's actually. In some circles, my God if you can survive the church politics, you can survive anything!!!! Also my pastor's concern as well as mine is that in some circles we seem to get so caught up in building "our ministry", that we lose focus that we are actually supposed to be building the kingdom of God. For us church isn't about what goes on inside the building, but is rather about what goes on outside the door after we have left the building. We should be advancing the kingdom of God, rather than filling our coffers. In some churches you pass three ATMS before you will ever see a cross!
Our community is an example of my pastor's vision. When I first came here it looked like any other south side ghetto. Vacant and borded up buildings, etc... we worked in cooperation with the alderman and the community has been totally revitalized. There is new contstruction, parks, entertainment centers and businesses and everywhere. Property values have skyrocketed, etc... the transformation is a miracle along the lines of the kind you like, Constatine....ha ha! And countless people who will never enter the door of our church or drop a dime in our collection plate benefit from it! We work towards may social justice issues in this way.
Sheilajo, I'm not speaking as one who doesn't understand where you are coming from. I understand all too well your statement "I realize the danger of "overcompensation" is very real...overcompensating for my former dependence by becoming too independent." It took some time for me to recover... a lot of time actually, from what I had experienced... You may very well have a calling to deal with people who have suffered spiritual abuse. This is not a calling that I have so far as I know... But make sure you are healed first.Our frame of reference has to be that of a free & healed person,not a victim.
Impressive Angevoix. Wow. Btw, you are spot on--my kind of "miracle" indeed. :)
Given the great outcome(s), why do you think your priest encounters so much resistance from Church leadership? Is his theology too liberal? He certainly sounds inclusive, though, of course, being "inclusive" can go hand-in-hand with any ilk,conservative or liberal. Just curious.
We ask ourselves the same question all of the time... You know, honestly it seems like the Cardinal makes it up as he goes along. We are constantly hearing different stories...One week its that our worship is too expressive, the next its that our pastor has been here too long, the week after that the Cardinal is upset because my pastor has spoken up about something he didn't think is kosher...its hard to keep up, the week after that we aren't Catholic enough, whatever that means... Personally I think there is a lot of envy over the attention my pastor gets. Desmond Tutu wasn't coming to see the Cardinal after all... By the way, yes we got in trouble for having an Anglican in our pulpit... Even though we are very active concerning issues of social justice, my Pastor is totally in line with moral issues such as abortion and gay marriage...
Speaking of my pastor, I would really appreciate any prayers that would be lifted on his behalf. He is experiencing some serious health issues right now. They are still running test on him and are not sure what the problem is, but he was unable to take a much anticipated trip to South Africa per his doctor's orders.
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